Follow-Up to WATERtalk

“Just Church: Catholic Social Teaching, Synodality, and Women”
with Phyllis Zagano
Sept. 13, 2023, 1:00 pm–2:00 pm EDT

Video may be found at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXL8LWpwmBk

WATER thanks Dr. Phyllis Zagano for an informative and stimulating presentation. These notes are meant to accompany the video of the session where the speaker’s own words give a fuller sense of the work at hand.

Introduction by Mary E. Hunt:

Phyllis Zagano is an internationally recognized Catholic scholar and lecturer on contemporary spirituality and women’s issues in the Roman Catholic Church. Dr. Zagano is well known in Catholic feminist circles for her sharp focus on women in the diaconate. I affectionately call her Phyllis “Deacon or Die” Zagano for her deep and abiding commitment to bringing back the diaconate for women. Such focus is what it takes to make history. The smart money is on Phyllis to get this done.

Her extensive biography is on the Hofstra University website where she is Senior Research Associate-in-Residence and Adjunct Professor of Religion.

Phyllis received a B.A. from Marymount College, Tarrytown, NY; a Ph.D. from the State University of New York at Stony Brook; and three master’s degrees, in communications (Boston University), literature (Long Island University), and theology (St. John’s University).

Dr. Zagano is the author or editor of twenty-six books in religious studies, including Holy Saturday: An Argument for the Restoration of the Female Diaconate in the Catholic Church (Crossroad, 2000) which is must reading for bishops, whether they know it or not. She has a rare ability in the academic world to communicate erudite scholarship in readable, accessible prose.

Her book for pre-teens, Elizabeth Visits the Abbey (Clear Faith Publishing, 2022) is the story of a young girl who visits an abbess who is her aunt. She gets a crash course in the history of women in the Church. On Prayer: A Letter for My Godchild is another creative effort for which Phyllis won the 2004 Catholic Press Association Book Award. She is versatile writer whose work has been translated into at least ten languages.

Dr. Zagano has lectured and done research in various places, Ireland being one of her favorites and Rome being one of her regular stops. She is the founding co-chair of the Roman Catholic Studies Group of the American Academy of Religion, and a member of several learned societies.

Phyllis was appointed by Francis to the first Papal Commission for the Study of the Diaconate of Women. After two years, that group was thanked kindly and replaced. There was some odd claim that they had not reached agreement, as if any group purposely made up of people who see the question differently could. There is no Phyllis Zagano on the new commission, as far as I know.

Phyllis lectures widely at universities, conferences, churches, any place where people are interested in solid theology, clear presentation, and fair-minded debate. Those are her hallmarks and she brings them to WATER today.

I have great regard for Phyllis. Even when we do not agree completely on a topic, she is always a good conversation partner. She has a marvelous sense of humor, an eye for detail; she is a keen judge of character and a tireless advocate for women. I have begun to think of her as St. Phoebe incarnate, the only named deacon in the Bible.

On our “What We’re Reading” page for September 2023 on our website, WATER says of Just Church:

“What would a just Catholic Church look like, and why is it imperative that one emerge? Read Phyllis Zagano’s primer on the topic. She is best known for her tireless efforts to get Roman Catholic women ordained to the diaconate. This book shows that her commitment is set in scholarship, realism, and strategizing.”

You will want to read the book. But for today you get something even better, a conversation with the author in the weeks leading up to the first meeting in Rome of the Synod on Synodality.

Welcome Phyllis Zagano!

Remarks by Phyllis Zagano

Phyllis opened her remarks on the (Western) feast day of by St. John Chrysostom by recalling that in his view the church is the entire assembly of members. As the Synod sessions in Rome approach, she pointed out that such meetings require “consensus” of bishops, priests, deacons, and all the People of God as per Cyprian of Carthage. A synodal procedure is not a parliamentary procedure, but a time of communal discernment.

As Phyllis looks at the Synod on Synodality (also known as the Synod of Bishops) and the contemporary state of the institutional Roman Catholic Church, she echoes William Butler Yeats in wondering if “the centre cannot hold.” Is it possible to address the deeply disputed issues related to women in the church in a consensual way so that the center will indeed hold?

Phyllis noted the synodal foci were Communion, Participation, and Mission but now have been framed as Communion, Mission, Participation. This change in order is significant in that it signals what is intended, how it is understood, and who will be involved.

Her book includes three sections: Catholic Social Teaching, Synodality, and Women and the Church, with a concluding section and several appendices.

1.) Catholic Social Teaching (CST)

She explores Catholic Social Teaching with women in mind, for example, the dignity of women’s work and the rights of workers including women in the church. The 47,000 male deacons are not necessarily remunerated if they have fulltime jobs outside the church. Many have not had the chance for a thorough spiritual or theological formation while there are many women, especially women religious, who have both training and experience.

She points out that in both CST and in the recent synodal documents there is attention to women’s wellbeing external to the institutional church but not internally when it comes to women’s work. For example, women religious have to pay rent in parish convents where they work, while secular priests live rent-free in the rectories. Parish secretaries, who are mostly women, often earn under the threshold for fulltime work so that the parishes are not obliged to pay benefits. By contrast, most of the men who work in maintenance and other such tasks are fulltime employees with benefits.

2) Synodality

The Synodality section of the book includes historical materials as well as information on the early 21st century synods culminating with the current Synod on Synodality. Synods have long been part of Catholic history and did not originate with Vatican II as some might think mistakenly.

It is Phyllis’ view that Pope Francis is developing increased clarity on the serious problems that the institutional church has with regard to how women are treated.

3) Women and the Church

She moves on in the section on Women and the Church to discuss issues of governance and jurisdiction. This leads to the history and vision of women deacons which is her topic of particular concern. She observes that women who will be participating in the upcoming Synod are, in the main, women already working in the Vatican. Because Pope Francis is consulting more widely with Cardinals, especially ones he has appointed from more diverse parts of the world, there may be increasing diversity of women involved in the future.

Phyllis points out the tensions between women and clerics. She distinguishes between “clericalism” which has been roundly called out by Pope Francis and being “clericalized,” which means entering into the clerical state. That ordinarily takes place, according to the 1983 Code of Canon Law, by ordination to the diaconate. If women are to be clericalized, that is, equal in position and power with men, it will be through the diaconate.

4) The Upcoming Synod

Sessions will be held in Rome from October 4-29, 2023, and roughly the same period in 2024. About 450 people, mostly bishops, priests, one deacon, and secular and religious lay people  (about 22%) will gather. Approximately 364 will be voting members, the rest experts and facilitators. The meetings will take place in Paul VI Hall with participants seated at round tables. The table groups will change in composition each of the four weeks so as to prevent domination by any one person or any single idea. A compulsory three-day retreat precedes the meeting itself.

Phyllis reports that most continental groups called for women’s diaconate to be considered. The presbyterate discussion is off the table as it is considered a doctrinal matter.

Plenary Discussion:

  1. Kate McElwee

Kate asked about the importance of the distinction between the “ordained” diaconate and the diaconate for women, since the word ordained was left out of the Document for the Continental Stage. The Instrumentum Laboris (the working document for the Synod) refers to the topic of “including women in the diaconate”. The International Theological Commission (in 1997) apparently saw no barrier to women in the diaconate, but that decision was never promulgated. Nor were the full results of the deliberations of the Papal Commission for the Study of the Diaconate of Women with which Phyllis was involved ever made public. This raises the question of what Pope Francis saw by way of reporting on that work.

Phyllis affirmed that the Pope understands that the time to call the question is upon us. If the answer to women deacons is “no” because women cannot image Christ in service, which Phyllis considers heretical as all persons image Christ, that will clarify matters but create enormous problems. If women can image Christ, and if the church needs deacons, then there is no rationale for prohibiting women’s ordination to the diaconate. Some say that the Vatican does not want to say ‘no’ but can’t say ‘yes’ because of the presumed connection (which Phyllis does not agree exists) between diaconate and presbyterate, a step it does not want to take. Hence the dilemma.

  1. Mary E. Hunt

Mary noted that for many people who have lived at a time when the transitional diaconate was common, it is a heavy lift to decouple diaconate and presbyterate. She asked Phyllis how it “should” work. Oddly, when women are in the picture that connection, still common for men, is severed.

Phyllis outlined how the deacon worked for the bishop and the priest worked for bishop. By the 12th century in Rome, at least 36 deacons had been elected pope without being ordained as priests.

We are now 50 years into the era of a permanent diaconate. Mary suggested how different things would be if the theology were that both the deacon and the priest worked not for the bishop but for the community.

The matter of some things being considered “off limits” at the Synod raises the question of who makes such decisions and whether those involved in the synod are those willing to go along with such presuppositions in the first place. In addition, Mary worried about the various views represented at the Synod as ships passing in the night with the result being the reification of the same model of church if there are no structural changes. Phyllis has no problem with the Pope making final decisions.

She affirmed that consensus needs to be reached despite the fact that there is no consensus on how to read the history of the deacon question. Still, she insisted that the church needs ministry, and if men are to be deacons, women are needed as well. She put to rest the argument that restoring the diaconate for women will cause ripples unto rifts with the Orthodox by stating the fact that Orthodox women are very active in restoring women to the diaconate. Still, this is a Synod on Synodality not a Synod on Women.

Phyllis believes that the question of women deacons is now up for more than discussion, indeed for decision making. She sees the Pope as less concerned than before about schism especially since German speaking and Nordic churches and some other regional groups are on board.

  1. Theresa Stawowy

Theresa asked what difference a circular approach, for example round tables,  will make in terms of governance, in terms of getting women discussed. Phyllis said there is no way to avoid the question of women given the number of mentions of women in the IL. That said, there is a Canon (1983 Code) that indicates that the laity can only “cooperate” and not “share” in the governance of the church, a canon written by then-Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. However, the People of God are also expected to make their needs known, as per another law so the Synod is a chance to do just that.

  1. Maureen Bibby

Maureen found the changing tables hopeful, but said she did not think the rest of the world was very concerned about this meeting. Phyllis agreed that no one in her diocese of Rockville Centre, NY would know anything as diocesan leadership there has done next to nothing to promote it.

Discussion continued well after the official close of the session.

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WATER thanks Dr. Phyllis Zagano for her generous sharing of her expertise. We look forward to her reflections after the Synod meeting in Rome.

Her book is Just Church: Catholic Social Teaching, Synodality, and Women, Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press, 2023 (122 pages, $17.95). tel: 800-218-1903, www.paulistpress.com

Following are just a few of the many resources on the topic. See Phyllis Zagano’s website, https://sites.hofstra.edu/phyllis-zagano/.