Follow-up to WATERtalk, “The Impact of Women’s Ordination on the Episcopal Church Fifty Years Ago and Now”

with Bishop Jennifer Baskerville-Burrows, the Rev. Dr. Carter Heyward, Writer Darlene O’Dell and Filmmaker Margo Guernsey

Chaired by Mary E. Hunt

Wednesday, September 25, 2024  1:00 pm–2:15 pm EST

WATER thanks Jennifer Baskerville-Burrows, Carter Heyward, Darlene O’Dell, and Margo Guernsey for a stimulating and informative conversation about the historic ordination of Episcopal women in July of 1974. The rich and textured conversation resulted in a deeper sense of the importance of this event and the many ripples that continue to emerge from it.

The video for this talk can be found at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiFIaG3FYl0

We HIGHLY recommend reading the book and watching the documentary for more insights into the complex story. Darlene O’Dell’s book The Story of the Philadelphia Eleven: Revised and Expanded 50th Anniversary Edition can be purchased from Church Publishing at https://www.churchpublishing.org/storyofthephiladelphiaelevenrevisededition.

The documentary “The Philadelphia Eleven,” can be accessed at https://kinema.com/events/the-philadelphia-eleven-5gmkf for the special rate of $5 until October 7, 2024. Otherwise, see https://www.philadelphiaelevenfilm.com/ for more information and viewing options.

Following are WATER’s notes from the program:

Mary E. Hunt’s Introduction to the panel

In July of 1974, I was happily ensconced as a counselor at a girls’ summer camp in the Adirondacks named for Joan of Arc. I learned of the ordinations via the very occasional newspaper that slipped in from the outside world. As a Catholic woman, I was of course thrilled. I had just finished a Masters in Theology at Harvard Divinity School and was en route to Berkeley for a PhD in theology.

When I got to the Graduate Theological Union, a collection of seminaries connected to University of California Berkeley, I chose to live at the Church Divinity School of the Pacific. I didn’t know any of the schools there so it was a bit of a random pick. But I figured CDSP would be a hotbed of feminism because of the recent ordinations and the pending legal status of the ordinands. Wrong.

Some women there were quietly pleased about the actions in Philadelphia, others seemingly indifferent. I was startled by those who said they were keeping their heads down, hoping that things would resolve and they, too, could be ordained. My feminist passions were not fueled by this my first naïve inkling that everyone, including women studying theology, was not on the same page.

Since then, I have followed this story with great interest. Fifty years later, I am intrigued to hear more. Our speakers will pick up the story here.

  1. The Rev. Dr. Carter Heyward was one of the Philadelphia 11, an
    Episcopal priest who now refers to herself as a “Universalist Christian.” She is a feminist liberation theologian who cut her teeth on social change in North Carolina where she learned firsthand how white racism works.

    Her later coming out as a lesbian added luster to the historic event and set a trajectory for her LGBTIQ+ leadership in religion. Carter taught at Episcopal Divinity School from 1975 until her retirement in 2006. Her pioneering work in feminist studies includes her foundational book Touching Our Strength: The Erotic as Power and the Love of God. Her most recent book is The Seven Deadly Sins of White Christian Nationalism: A Call to Action which we discussed at a WATERtalk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf1gCz7kvGI Welcome, Carter.

  1. Dr. Darlene O’Dell is the author of the book The Story of the Philadelphia Eleven (50th anniversary edition). It really does read like a novel you don’t want to end, full of characters, and I mean ‘characters’, and a satisfying ending about the rest of their lives. She has a doctorate from William and Mary. Darlene, from Ashville, NC, is a widely published author who writes both for adults and young people. Her published works include Sites of Southern Memory: The Autobiographies of Katharine Du Pre Lumpkin, Lillian Smith, and Pauli Murray (a later ordinand in the Episcopal Church); and Raised in the World of Everyday Poets. She joined us ten years ago to talk about this book then so I welcome Darlene back. We want to hear how your thinking has evolved.
  1. I welcome filmmaker Margo Guernsey, director of the documentary film The Philadelphia Eleven. If you haven’t seen it, you’ll want to. On third viewing, recently I was just as enthused as the first time.

    According to her bio, Margo is a documentary Director/Producer, impact strategist, and founder of Time Travel Productions. She has made a number of films including Councilwoman (2019) and No Time To Fail (2022). Margo is bilingual in Spanish and English, and is a member of the Board of Directors of the Documentary Producers Alliance. I saw this film at the American Film Institute in Silver Spring, MD where another panel of women reflected on it, making clear that the event and the aftermath lend brilliantly to film. Welcome, Margo.

  1. Bishop Jennifer Baskerville-Burrows, a native New Yorker now bishop in Indianapolis, comes to WATER for the first time. Welcome, Jennifer. She has a background in historic preservation of religious spaces, as well as in race and class reconciliation, spiritual direction, and development. She did her theological studies at CDSP in California. She has served in the Dioceses of Newark, Central New York, and Chicago so has broad national experience. Jennifer is also a triathlete and a chef to round out her busy life. Jennifer is the first Black woman elected as a diocesan bishop in the Episcopal Church and was recently elected Vice President of the House of Bishops. Jennifer, please be at home at WATER.
  1. Carter Heyward: What was it like then and what is it like now?

    Then, it was exhilarating and harrowing. The time had come to “shatter the glass ceiling.” After fifty years of study, the conclusion was there was no reason not to ordain women, but now is not the time to do it.

    The matter had been turned down twice by the deciding bodies. In the fall of 1973, after the Louisville Convention, efforts were made to get bishops to ordain women. The bishops refused, one saying that his hands were tied. Eventually, Bishop Bob Dewitt and Sue Hiatt working together in Philadelphia organized the first ordination of 11 women by 4 male bishops on July 29, 1974.

    Carter saw the ordination as not just the inclusion of women but the inclusion of everyone including LGBT people. It was an act of justice love.

    What it means now is that there is some progress in the church. Especially having women of color in leadership is important. But the church is “too quiet in the realm of justice making.” Justice making needs to be at the heart of what it means to be church with the church serving the world.

  1. Darlene O’Dell: Please tell us about your book then and now, 1974, 2014, 2024.

    Darlene was 11 years old when the Philadelphia 11 were ordained. Their stories affected her deeply. By the 40th anniversary, she researched the book and found long paper trails in church circles. She wrote the book which has been very well received as the definitive telling of the story.

    Between the 40th and 50th anniversaries, she wondered what would have happened if the women had not gotten ordained when they did. She looked at the 11 in 1974 and the 4 women who were ordained the next year in Washington, DC. The results have been amazing. For example, it is hard to think of religious groups taking on same-sex marriage if the Episcopal Church and other mainline denominations had not taken on women’s ordination.

    In the ten years between anniversaries, the many changes like the MAGA movement and White Christian Nationalism only make clearer how important justice work is.

  1. Margo Guernsey: How has the film been received and what do you glean from that about the impact of the ordinations over time?

    Margo spoke about the film to a class recently at Emerson College. A twenty-something student expressed her surprise about the fact that the Episcopal Church ordains women. So the news is not shared as widely as we in the know might imagine.

    Cutting room floor materials are of note. The film, like the book, can only include so much. Many issues had to be left out for practical reasons. One insight that bears highlighting was how well Carter Heyward and Sue Hiatt held together a coalition of people with disparate views.

  1. Jennifer Baskerville-Burrows: As a diocesan bishop and now as Vice President of the House of Bishops, how do you see the overall impact of the 1974 ordinations then and now?

    Smith College graduate, Jennifer started to attend the Episcopal Church in 1984 after not growing up in that tradition. She noted women in leadership and assumed that it was normative. After college, she learned the history and saga of the Episcopal women. Many women were part of her journey, including Betty Bone Schiess who was one of the early ordinand. She appreciates so many others who serve the church today. Take away: we have to keep our foot on the pedal. We cannot take women’s leadership for granted. There is some backsliding on numbers of women ordained, promoted, etc. so this is no time to let up.

    The story of the Philadelphia 11 is part of the on-going efforts to raise up others as we go. If there is a desire in the heart of a young girl to serve, she needs encouragement so as not to have the barriers that earlier women faced.

Discussion with panelists

  1. What did you find in someone else’s remarks today that made you reflect anew on your own experience?

    Darlene: The idea of “keeping our foot on the pedal” spoke to me.

    Carter: Likewise, race and gender matter, so we need to insist on justice. Also, Betty Bone Schiess was the most feminist of all of the ordinands. She had such brightness, fervor, and intelligence.

    Jennifer: Jennifer served on a panel with her role model Betty Bone Schiess who did not mince words. White Christian Nationalism means that the normative view of ‘Christian’ is not what this panel looks like. There is a need to remind people of the views women hold.

    Margo: Even though she was not raised in the Episcopal Church. Margo sees the film’s work in the world in broad terms. It is not just about the ordination women but also about dealing with White Christian Nationalism and its fallout.

  1. What parallels do you see between the experiences of Episcopalians with and the experiences of women in other denominations that ordain women where numbers have grown from roughly from 3% in 1980 to 30+ % now, with 50%+ women in seminary? What about women in denominations like Church of God in Christ where women can’t be bishops? And what is the impact especially in the Roman Catholic Church where resistance is still so ferocious, where women who are part of the Roman Catholic WomenPriests and the Association of Roman Catholic Women Priests groups are ex-communicated upon ordination? What is your read of those situations, and so you have any advice to offer these siblings?

    Carter: What enabled women to go forward was that they were together. While they did not agree on everything, they managed to stay together. The more collective and mutually supportive we can be despite our differences, the more effective we can be.

    Jennifer: There is a need to work across denominations especially as women are increasing in the percentage of those in ministry/leadership.

    Darlene: “Remember who you are.” “Claim your history.”

Q+A with all participants

  1. A colleague from Cincinnati spoke warmly of Betty Bone Schiess who was also from Cincinnati. Her husband’s parents lived across the street from the Bone family, parents who raised a strong daughter.
  1. A retired seminary professor underscored the importance of the Philadelphia 11 ordinations for many people in other denominations and later on for the ordiantion of LGBTQA+ people.
  1. A Roman Catholic woman priest from Philadelphia worked with Sue Hiatt on ecumenical efforts. Through Sue, she met many of the original ordinands. She studied in Indianapolis where one of her classmates refused ordination until women could be ordained. Her gratitude for the Philadelphia 11 persists.
  1. A colleague from the UK raised the question of the impact of the 1992 decision to allow people to opt out of working with women priests. What resources might exist to help people in England who want to undo this? While panelists were not able to provide specific resources, there is interest in being helpful, perhaps with women bishops taking the lead.
  1. A priest in New Hampshire added data on the US conscience clause.
  1. A former WATER intern reflected on the Southern Baptist situation where women in ministry have found barriers appearing and reappearing.
  1. A Baptist/Unitarian Universalist pastor who was in seminary with some of the Philadelphia 11named their ordiantion as an important moment for all women in theological studies. Women minister groups have been important to her.

    Conferences of women in the 1970s and 1980s were useful, suggesting that perhaps it is time to have more such conferences. The spirit of Betty Bone Schiess was very important to her as well.

    Moderator’s Comment—the stories are so engaging! The movie and the book showcase many of the men who were so opposed to women. Their statements are so ridiculous, then and now, especailly the fellow who said there could not be female roosters so apparently no women priests either!

    Final discussion included the dangers women in religion face, including being scratched by those who opposed them. Lesbians and Black Panthers secured the church on the day of the ordinations.

    Carter mused about how it might have been if today’s gun violence had been as ubiquitous then. The abuse women priests received, and the misogyny knows no bounds. Barbara Harris was offered but refused to wear a bullet proof vest for her service. Gene Robinson, the first openly gay bishop, chose to wear a bullet proof vest for his consecration.

    A participant observed that a male Episcopal priest who opposed the ordination of women was received warmly into the Roman Catholic Church. Anti-woman, anti-queer Catholic teachings are part of the deal as these clerics switch teams.

    Some of the most damaging problems came from allegedly liberal people who were thought to be dependable but were not. For example, several women found that their so-called liberal bishops could not break clerical ranks and confront the patriarchy. ‘Collegiality’ is clericalism writ large and misogyny writ small. Also, the women who stayed quiet in the hope that they would be ordained were of little help.

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WATER thanks our four speakers—Carter, Darlene, Jennifer, and Margot, and wishes them many fruitful years ahead.